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Stuttering/viewing problems... What's going on?
Becoming a "Pro" member I have started embedding the WM viewer in our pages but I'm having "dreadful" results... terrible stuttering.
When I embed our own flash player I do not have these issues for the most part. Also with our own player the video (pre)loads until it is fully loaded which can reduce the stuttering. This is not happening with the WM viewer.
I like some of the functionality of the WM viewer and it eases our workflow somewhat, but the stuttering is unacceptable. It's visible on a recent 2.8 Ghz Core2 Duo Mac with 4GB of RAM and on our older Mac's it's impossible to watch these.
What's going on, is this a WM server issue, programming issue?
Anyone else having these issues.
http://mixedmediaco.com/videotours/3060-park-brighton-mi-real-estate-video.html
I guess another problem could be ISP, but the problems are much less using our own viewer?
What kind of download speeds are you experiencing?
Our Comcast connection is running at 18526 kbps at the moment.
http://www.broadband.gov/qualitytest/about/
I think its your ISP, cuz the vid played just fine for me. Nice job! Which camera did you use for this project?
Great job on the video, Matti. Yes, I've had issues too, and continue to have issues on stuttering. i'd be interested to know if you or someone else has a solution to the problem. By the way, what are you using to stablize your camera while moving? I'm using a Glidecam but need a bit more help than it can offer.
R. Lee - I have been using a Sony HDR- HC1 for some time but the LCD just went out on it, I hear it's a problem with many Sony's... some kind of a manufacturing defect as it works when flipped and folded?
Just got a new Panasonic AG-HMC40 AVCCAM trying to figure out how it works:)
I guess to some degree it could be an ISP issue but when using our own viewer, it greatly reduces the stutter?
Ross - I use nothing to stabilize the camera except the built in OIS and then editing software takes care of the rest. Maybe I just have steady-hand:)
I have a handful of clients who refuse to switch to video because of the stuttering video. There's got to be a way to make this work better. I can watch all kind of videos with super quality on the news sites and elsewhere and these do not stutter.
Try make a reel and upload it to www.vimeo.com to test that HD player. Also, www.motionbox.com has a free HD player that might work for you needs, but they will charge for a pro account. But, you can test it for free.
Another option is streaming on Amazon's S3 CDN along with a service like www.eZs3.com or your own players. Here's a cool site where you can buy tons of different flash player that will also play h.264, etc... activeden.com.
Hope that helps.
When we use our own player we host on Amazon S3 and the there's no stuttering, except maybe on an aged PC.
However, when I play the above video on YouTube (uploaded by WM) it plays fine on my computer, on older systems it jerks but considerably less than when viewing on WellcomeMat?
The video on the link provided played great for me (using a 3 yr old Lenovo. The video quality was exceptional!
Do you use any external lighting?
We've been thinking about embeding our own flash player, but not really sure how to accomplish it. Our website programer tells us our server is not really designed for streaming media. Not sure if that is accurate or makes a difference - of if I understand it properly.
Your new camera is an impressive one - any concerns about processing AVCHD?
Yes indeed, a stuttering problem with any camera movement. When I upload from FCP to Youtube there isn't nearly the problem. New clients who haven't been exposed to online video can be quite disturbed. Haven't gotten the support from WM that I'd hoped.
All,
We have ID(d) some issues that are being addressed as we speak. Our standard def video quality (bitrate/frame rate) is quite a bit higher than most video platforms. This does not help if certain areas of the country are having slower than normal connection speeds. But, in addition to this, there are tweaks that we are making that should bring us back to normal, stutter free, video playback.
Please stand by. And, please send any and all support related items to support@wellcomemat.com
Matthew, you helped us identify the issue(s). Thanks for that and we are not ignoring you: our development team is on it...
-Christian
Update: we have a support ticket in with our content delivery network and are waiting to hear back. Issue should be resolved by tonight, but please be patient. Tech issues have a tendency to drag out (hoping this is not the case).
Thanks.
Would be great to get this resolved, thanks WM for your attention to this.
FYI... I was today at an Apple store and pulled up one of our tours on a top of the line 27" iMac i7 and the problem persisted there as well.
Ok...as of last night, we should have been corrected for the most part. Please note that our team, in comparison to other video platforms, is shooting for has high of quality as possible as our standard definition. This means that playback, even without HD running, is more data for machines to process and for networks to download.
I'd be interested to hear people's feedback on this: would you prefer that we lower the quality of our standard definition playback to ensure that we all get a few less calls each year about stutters?
Second Note:
We are going to addionally implement a "buffering" tool into our player to alleviate stutters even more. That can be expected to be out in the next few weeks.
Just uploaded new videos, still doing it... at least for me:(
The question is do we need to re-upload all our videos that are playing badly or should they just start playing better? As of Saturday night at 9:15 pm my videos are still stuttering. In my latest upload in a solid camera shot the real estate agent who walks into frame skips frames.
Hi Matti - What camera are you using?
I'm guess it has a CMOS sensor...
^^^ Rushing to get out this morning^^^
My earlier post should have read and a link added like this....
Hi Matt - What camera are you using?
I'm guessing it has a CMOS sensor - This article explains the differences between CMOS and CCD, hope you find this useful.
I guess it shows I have a new camera:(
I first got the Panasonic HMC40 based on all the rave reviews and the fact that it used an SD card, but totally hated it. It felt cheap and I couldn't keep the wht balance in check. Being a Sony guy I went back to Sony for the HDR-FX7 instead and like it very much, just haven't had much time to get handle on all the features and adjustments.
Thanks for the link!
The stuttering is nothing really to do with Wellcomemat...
CMOS sensors are a known fact for the "jello effect" . Try switching the image stabilizer off in your camera settings while flying your camera on a stabilizer. Give it a test.
Also what frame rate do you use for the tours 24 - 30 or 60i
When you Upload, which file format do you use.
I have not (to my knowledge) encountered the jello effect, where did you find it on our tours? I have a problem with adjusting the lighting on the new camera.
My previous camera was a CCD and the stuttering was there as well. Like I said before, when I encode the video and host it on Amazon S3 it don't stutter at least on my Mac, when I use the WM encoding and embed it does?
Here the video is encoded by us and resides on Amazon S3 servers: http://mixedmediaco.com/videotours/5936-brighton-lake-brighton-mi-real-estate-video.html (it does not stutter, at least not on my Mac).
Here the video is encoded by WM and (I assume resides on WM servers): http://mixedmediaco.com/videotours/38813-plumbrook-farmington-hills-mi-real-estate-video.html (it's jerky, especially noticeable on pans).
Matti - I'm sorry I don't have the time to go back through your videos. I think your issues are not with WM but with your camera settings and file format when you upload.
Its frustrating I know, lots of information on the dvxuser site,from folks that use FX7.
Good luck with it.
Cheers scon.
Matti,
Not sure if this helps, but I have, use, and love the Panasonic HMC40 and have not seen any stuttering in my videos. Perhaps it is in your translating of the native camera files or the encoding? Good luck, I know this can be very frustrating!
Note: we have not stopped looking into this issue since it came up. It's weird because it is only affecting a few people. What we do know is that a buffering tool will solve a majority of this and it's being built right now. In addition to that, we have any additional issues pinpointed at how well Limelight Networks' CDN is working for us.
Bringing this up again in case it matters to anyone: we are encoding videos at as high of a rate as possible, as our standard definition. We're doing this because all of us are using video to sell the most expensive products on the planet. We feel that quality should be as high as possible. This is going to cause us to get complaints about jerkiness, which can be alleviated with tools such as the buffering tool, but we can't tone down the quality, right?
Peter -It wasn't unique to the HMC40... like I said when we encode our own files the problem is not present.
Christian - Yes (I) we want high quality, but also an ability to watch without stuttering:) Maybe there is a compromise available?
Perhaps we should keep in mind that the equipment agents have available to view the tours (especially in the brokers office) (out) dated and if agents have a problem viewing the tours, many will be hesitant to use the service for fear buyers will encounter the same problems.
I'm switching our broadband from Comcast to ATT this week and will report if this helped. Also hopefully the buffering initiatives from WM will resolve the issue.
Matti,
Because you and I are the two most affected or vocal on this stuttering issue maybe we should compare equipment/tech. I'm shooting with a fairly new HD Panasonic AG-HMC150. I edit on a fairly new Final Cut Pro system and output to WM on their requested 264 codec at 1280 x 720. My files are between 100MGS and 600MGS.
I'm wondering if the stuttering could be caused by the WM system tring to work with too large of files. What size files are you uploading, Matti?Everybody else? Should I be compressing to much smaller (and so lower quailty) files? In discussing this challenge with other videographers and web designers, this suggestion, to try to compress down to 10 MGS or less is being reccomended. My experience so far is that a great deal of video quality is lost.
Christian?
Recently we have been uploading m4v files of around 100 - 150MB. Codecs H.264, AAC, bitrate about 3,932. However, prior to this we uploaded substantially smaller files and had similar issues.
Flash may have something to do with this... we all know by now the Steve Jobs argument "Flash on Macs is s resource hog".
Matthew are you experiencing this on Macs or Windows machines?
Update:
The video buffering tool should be implemented this week
Matti,
Steve Jobs' is an idiot regarding flash (in my opinion): if 98% of web users have the ability to facilitate rich media playback via a certain avenue, why would you adamently fight it when the next closest format isn't even close in market penetration? Not a fan of Jobs these days...he's eating the same crow he ate back in the 80(s). Ie....who won between Windows and Mac and why? Steve HAD to control hardware and software and lost. He's doing the same thing today against Google. As Goog makes their mobile operating system ubiquitous, Steve and Apple tighten their reigns around some success related to hardware. And btw...I love Apple products. Very strange way for me to arrive to my real point:
WellcomeMat is not playing back video in Flash. We stopped over a year ago: it's H264 being played via a Flash player.
Matti,
Editing on FCP on new model I MAC (great big 27 inch screen for these tired eyes.) What I send out looks so great but when I'm watching WM it's all "stutterin" . Yeah, so my files are on the large end, what with HD video, Titles, music and all. Do you compress to get down to 150-MB?
Matthew - What frame rate FPS are you shooting 24, 30 or 60i ?
I render to WMV files (HD, usually 1280x720), and the compression is great! I've never had a problem with any of my videos stuttering. I know some people wince when they hear wmv, but it works great for me (and that format renders pretty quick for me-- I use a PC right now with Sony Vegas Pro).
Good afternoon. It's been interesting reading the "Stuttering/viewing problems... What's going on?" comments. I guess we need to define stuttering. To me it means the shaky "stuttering" effect which occurs while watching a pan or any camera movement. All of my videos are uploaded to WM, therefore all of my videos are watched through the WM viewer. Yes, if that is the definition of stuttering, my videos stutter too. With that definition in mind, and with all due respect... those of you who claim your videos don't stutter - well they do! I've checked your videos out. I realize that there may be different degrees of intensity to the stuttering. However, why tolerate any stuttering? So are you talking about something else?
Respectfully, Ross Kenyon
It's got to be something with WM and a combination of maybe ISP speed?
The same video viewed on YouTube submitted there by WM plays fine:(
Let's hope the the good folks at WM will resolve the issues with the coming change.
Matthew/Matti,
We have rolled out the first version of our buffering tool and it is doing it's thing. At this point, we have all issues narrowed down to the fact that we have both a higher bitrate setting than other services (on purpose) and a higher variable bitrate range applied within our encoding process. What I mean is that our encoding process is capable of detecting higher bitrate requirements within specific videos, exemplified most during pans (the faster the pan, the more data being processed...you guys know this stuff and I sound like a monkey describing it to masters). Here is an example of what I am talking about:
- You're shooting in HD with a high bitrate for higher quality (good choice)
- You pan shots quickly, and when doing so, the amount of bitrate requirements spikes
- Our encoding process spikes along with these and renders higher than normal bitrates
We're seeing the same issues with stuttering on YouTube. Click here for an example of Matthew's videos stuttering. But, with WellcomeMat's higher quality within SD, stutters are exascerbated.
Note: we are not claiming 100% that we are right, yet. But, the most straight forward solution (on any video platform, but especially WellcomeMat) is to stabilize as much as possible, pan slower OR optimize camera camera settings when faster than normal pans are necessary.
And guys...my video production days have been over for a long while. I bet you are way more experienced with this stuff than I am. I am just trying to call it like we see it in as few of words as possible. Not trying to coach the masters here : )
Saying this for the 100th time: we don't want to tone down our quality. We want your work to look as great as possible, so working out issues individually to collectively raise the bar seems like the best route.
All,
The biggest tech related issue to hit our team in a long time was related to us isolating the stuttering issue that some of our users were having. As the guy that was serving as a liason between our development team and our members/partners, it's been a little ridiculous because we have had a lot of false positives. In other words, we THOUGHT we had the fix, or the right info many times and actually didn't because the issue would resurface.
We Believe We Have FOUND the Issue FOR REAL this time and it seems to be past versions of Flash. If you are still seeing any stuttering issues, please upgrade to the newest version of flash here:
Download The Newest Version of Flash
Personal Note to Anyone that was frustrated (along with us) by the false positives: we are very sorry for having a bunch "aha" moments that did not pan out. As a statement of gratitude, we will provide a free month of Pro to anyone that had a support case related to video stutters (note: you MUST have sent an email to support@wellcomemat.com OR submited our support form to get this).
While we were not exactly at fault in this instance, we are thankful for the few of you that were affected and provided us with valuable info that helped us isolate this problem. Anyone that had a support case opened for this speicifc issue, please email support@wellcomemat.com and state that you're here for your free month. Thank you!!
Hey Christian... I was frustrated that the issue wasn't resolved after all your efforts and when the latest version of Flash came out installed it with the hope that it indeed would resolve the problem. I did see an improvement but didn't have much time recently to further test. it. A few days back I was previewing one of our uploads and I thought to my self, hmmm... the stuttering is gone.
So thanks for the heads up that indeed we are free of stuttering! So maybe after all there is something to Steve Jobs' fit about Flash:)
YEEEEEESSSSSSSS!!!!! Can't tell you all how much sleep I lost over this one. Very glad to see this fix sticks! Don't ever count on WellcomeMat's team giving up on a challenge. Credit where credit is due: David Overcash was the guy shouldering the pressure of the stutters. As usual, the guy pulls through. Thanks to the Platform MVP - David Overcash.
